Kvetch » Marriage and Feminism » Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation
| Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #679042] |
Thu, 04 January 2007 23:28  |
 Matilda Wormwood
Messages: 1020
Registered: June 2005
Location: St. Louis |
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Crisis pregnancy centers are a paradox to me. On one hand, I firmly believe in a woman’s right to choose whether or not to have a safe and legal abortion. On the other hand, the whole key to choice is that there are services to help a woman who makes the choice not to have an abortion. Choice must go both ways. In theory, I would support an agency that exist to assist women who are choosing to carry a pregnancy to full term; an agency that would give women information about available services to help them make the best decisions for them.
However, since most of the crisis pregnancy centers are funded by and staffed by people who are opposed to legal abortions for a myriad of religious, ethical or political beliefs, I become very skeptical about the reality of crisis pregnancy centers.
I decided to investigate a crisis pregnancy center in my area, very close to the local university campus and directly across the street from the an abortion clinic. (and it’s no coincidence that the names are confusingly similar.) Although I am not pregnant, and never have been pregnant, I devised a story about being a girl “in trouble” and knocked on the door one afternoon. (I was playing dumb, like I thought the crisis center was the abortion clinic. They never really corrected me.)
The man who answered the door left me alone for a while which gave me an opportunity to take a peek at the brochures they were handing out. I grabbed one entitled “Abortion Raises Breast Cancer Risk” and another saying that abortion was the leading cause of death in the African American community.
It was my lucky day, as the nurse who performed the ultrasounds was out of the office that day. I inquired about why I would need an ultrasound when I just wanted to get an abortion. The man seemed genuinely concerned for me, and explained that unlike the abortion providers who were just in the business to make a buck, this pregnancy center was more concerned with the women. They performed ultrasounds to make sure that the woman was actually pregnant. According to this man, abortion clinics would often perform “abortions” on women who were not actually pregnant, just to take their money. They also wanted to figure out exactly how far along my pregnancy was; he encouraged me to wait until after the 12th week to have an abortion, if I was determined to have one. According to him, pregnancies in the first trimester have a high chance of miscarriages, so I might not really ever need to spend my money on an abortion. He also said before the 12th week that the fetus (which he referred to as “the baby”) were very hard to locate in order to perform the abortion and even though you pay for an abortion you might not actually receive one.
Interestingly, most abortions are performed before the 12th week, and it is much cheaper to get an abortion earlier in the pregnancy. Only 5-12% of abortions occur after the 12th week. (This information is from my friend who works as a nurse for the local abortion clinic across the street) My theory is that he told women these things in order to get them to postpone the abortion in the hopes that they would either reconsider or not be able to afford the abortion.
The man let me go home with a packet of information. There was a lot of emphasis in the materials about letting women make their own decision. However, the list of experiences that women have post abortion range from regret, anger, nightmares; to a bit over the top: a desire to have a replacement baby, self hatred, suicidal, fear of god, repeat abortions drug abuse, eating disorders, memory repression. Then there are the just plain misogynistic: Threat to family structure, increase in breast cancer risk and promiscuity.
The packet also included a flier with some supposed real quotes from women who had abortions. Not a single one expressed a positive experience or a feeling of relief. Each story expressed the physical pain of having an abortion and the deep depression that followed. In one story, the woman’s boyfriend committed suicide over his feeling of regret about the abortion.
As I suspected, the local crisis pregnancy center is nothing more than a store front designed to distract and deter women away from the abortion clinic across the street. While they claim to give women choices the reality is that there is only one “choice” for a woman to make. They use dirty tactics and outright lies and deception to keep women from making the best choice for them. They are insulting their clients by keeping the full truth from them.
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #679054] |
Fri, 05 January 2007 00:40  |
Anakalia
Messages: 466
Registered: April 2006
Location: Scottsdale, AZ |
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| Matilda Wormwood wrote on Fri, 05 January 2007 00:32 |
I don't know, should it be the responsibility of an abortion clinic to say that some women feel regret or depression after having an abortion?
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I think so, just considering that it seems like every medicine or medical process I take/undergo, the doctor goes through a litany of possible complications or issues that may arise, even emotionally. I think it's just sort of a responsible medical practice to do that. On the other hand, maybe this abortion clinic would discuss those issues if you decided to have one...
It's an interesting topic, though. If you don't write something up, you should call a health reporter at your local newspaper and tip them off 
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #679060] |
Fri, 05 January 2007 02:00 |
slythwolf
Messages: 286
Registered: December 2006
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I've read articles about those places. The stuff about the link to breast cancer, and the risk of death, all lies. You're more likely to die in childbirth than having an abortion.
These places are federally funded, too. Isn't that great?
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #679087] |
Fri, 05 January 2007 10:20 |
DeeLeigh
Messages: 1313
Registered: September 2004
Location: Toronto, ON Canada |
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| browny wrote on Fri, 05 January 2007 01:08 |
I doubt the abortion clinic is any more honest or caring about the woman's emotional well-being.
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Actually, I've bet it's a lot more honest and balanced. As for caring, it sounds to me like the "crisis pregnany center" is set up to hurt women, not to care for them. They're trying their best to create those feelings of guilt and pain that they talk so much about - feelings that might otherwise not be an issue.
wedding web site
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #679117] |
Fri, 05 January 2007 11:59 |
ScrittiKitty
Messages: 515
Registered: September 2006
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I've had two abortions, one at a small clinic, and one at a Planned Parenthood. I had a horrible experience in every way the first time, and a very emotional but ultimately positive-as-possible experience the second time with PP.
But both did ultrasounds. I would guess this is not just because they aren't out to take money from every woman who comes in (like lots of women wander into abortion clinics saying, "Oh, I'm not sure if I'm pregnant or not; I'm just browsing."), but also because I imagine their liability would be enormous if someone had complications or even died from a procedure it was found she didn't even need.
Also, both places had me talk to a nurse about all the physical and emotional risks, both asked me specifically whether I had considered all my options and offered to help me find other solutions if that was what I wanted, and both made sure that no one was forcing me to do this.
Oh, and both told me not to wait too long, because after 12 weeks - which is three months, mind you - the procedure becomes much riskier, and the loss of the pregnancy is much harder on the woman's body.
I mean, think about it: abortion clinics are already so vilified that the last thing they would want is to do anything that might give the appearance of shady, improper, or unethical behavior. If someone comes forward and claims, "I was pressured" or "I wasn't properly warned", they want show they did everything they could to help her, and that she made a free and informed decision.
So close, and yet... so what?
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #679149] |
Fri, 05 January 2007 13:35 |
toughcookies
Messages: 994
Registered: September 2005
Location: Calgary, Alberta |
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You know, it really bothers me that it's called a 'crisis' center to begin with. I guess I just don't think the language is appropriate.
It's pretty disgusting that people can just go around with false information, trying to influence already confused women. I wonder what would have happened if you said you wanted to go ahead with the abortion. That crisis center certainly didn't offer them. Would they refer you to the clinic across the street? It's interesting.
Being an actual medical clinic, the abortion clinic would have certain responsibilities it has to meet. They would have to do bloodwork, and an ultrasound. They would present you with all the options, and give you as much info as they have available. I would hope that some would offer counselling or at least refer you to a place after the operation, but I guess that's really at their discretion.
"He knows I don't like jelly... I don't trust the way it moves."
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #679464] |
Sun, 07 January 2007 08:50 |
Baygirl
Messages: 2600
Registered: June 2003
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To me it doesn't matter what else they say once they distribute things that say things like "Abortion is the #1 cause of death in the African American community." It's a front for pro-forced birther organizations. And telling women to wait (under the guise of being concerned) until abortion is much harder to get is disgusting.
I think you should spread the news far and wide as to the medical disinformation campaign they're waging.
"There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California." -- E. Abbey
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #679725] |
Mon, 08 January 2007 15:01 |
Pangolin
Messages: 356
Registered: July 2003
Location: Easterly |
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I've spent a lot of time around abortion clinics both as a volunteer and later as a medical student, and I don't think I've ever met a patient who really felt good about the process, even when they were certain that an abortion was the right choice for them. So it really chaps my hide that places like this Crisis Center exist to make people feel worse about themselves, and possibly even get guilted into changing the course of their lives completely.
An ultrasound, I will say, is inevitable. They're needed for dating purposes, for one thing--lots of women aren't sure when they became pregnant and so there can be real surprises. A number of the patients who came for abortions at the clinic where I rotated as a medical student ended up being too far along for a legal abortion, or needed more complicated procedures due to later dates. There's also the possibility of an ectopic pregnancy. But obviously this place Matilda Wormwood went to uses ultrasounds for a more ulterior purpose. I understand that not every woman with an unintentional pregnancy wants an abortion, and I think that's great. But for women who do, telling them they're going to get breast cancer or that they're contributing to the demise of their race is just fearmongering, and it pisses me off.
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681737] |
Sun, 14 January 2007 16:35 |
TheGlimmering
Messages: 290
Registered: January 2006
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Tue, 21 July 2009 11:13]
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681749] |
Sun, 14 January 2007 17:10 |
slythwolf
Messages: 286
Registered: December 2006
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| TheGlimmering wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 17:35 |
it's inherently anti-woman to view any pregnancy as a problem to be solved.
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I don't think anyone views all pregnancies that way, but I know if I were to become pregnant my pregnancy would definitely be a problem to be solved.
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the majority of women would seem to want to keep the pregnancy/child, but feel circumstances make that impossible.
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That's probably true, but transforming society into a utopia where it's possible for everyone to have everything they would like to have is an unrealistic goal. Also, those of us who are in the minority and don't ever want to have children need an option too.
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681773] |
Sun, 14 January 2007 18:45 |
DeeLeigh
Messages: 1313
Registered: September 2004
Location: Toronto, ON Canada |
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| TheGlimmering wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 17:35 |
There are plenty of pro-life women who consider their position pro-woman, who think that the pro-choice stance misses the point if it isn't outright anti-woman. As the thinking goes, only women can bear children just yet and it's inherently anti-woman to view any pregnancy as a problem to be solved.
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Just because someone is a woman and has sex, it doesn't mean that she wants to have a child. A child is an incredible responsibility and a huge amount of work, and they take over your life. It wouldn't matter if we lived in a pro-child, pro-parenting utopia. There would still be plenty of women who don't want that responsibility, or don't want it at certain times in their lives. Not everyone who has an abortion has mixed feelings about it. Pro-life women just don't seem to get that. (and, even carrying an pregnancy to term requires a large investment)
wedding web site
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681811] |
Sun, 14 January 2007 21:44 |
PostScript
Messages: 385
Registered: July 2006
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| TheGlimmering wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 14:35 |
Simplifying the opposing view down to "anti-woman" sucks, too.
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I don't think it sucks at all, actually. In fact, I would broaden the opposing view out to anti-human being. The second you take away someone's right to choose and be the guardian of their own body you are denying them funadamental rights as a living, breathing human being with choices. If opposing that view isn't anti-human rights, I don't know what is. I kind of understand what you're getting at, because I don't think (most) pro-lifers necessarily want to cause harm to women (so therefore they can't be "anti-woman"), but it is an assumption that all women feel a pull towards motherhood and therefore struggle with the choice to have an abortion. Years ago, I had an abortion because yes, it was completely the wrong time in my life. It was not a hard decision at all for me and no, I didn't experience any feelings of remorse or distress or think "if only this were at a more convenient time, I would have it." Because it wasn't at a more convenient time and thankfully, I had the right to make that decision for myself. And even if it was at a more convenient time, I still don't think I'd struggle with having an abortion if I didn't want to have a child. This is a slippery slope, but still, it truly, truly frightens me that there are people and organizations out there that would lie to women to further an agenda. It's sick.
[Updated on: Sun, 14 January 2007 21:53]
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681877] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 10:02 |
TheGlimmering
Messages: 290
Registered: January 2006
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Tue, 21 July 2009 11:14]
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681882] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 10:10 |
slythwolf
Messages: 286
Registered: December 2006
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| TheGlimmering wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 11:02 |
I'm curious why we should promote the one ans not the other. It would be pretty sick if money were the reason.
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We shouldn't, that's why it should be a choice.
I look at it this way: Some people claim that abortion is murder. I say it's often self-defense.
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681897] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 11:21 |
DeeLeigh
Messages: 1313
Registered: September 2004
Location: Toronto, ON Canada |
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| TheGlimmering wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 11:02 |
Oooo! Here's a point for discussion: How would an ethical pro-life crisis pregnancy center operate? (Aside from educating their volunteers, most really believe the scare quotes they give.)
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It wouldn't, at least not as a first option. Denying that abortion is a legitimate choice, and the right choice for some women, is inherently disingenuous. The only ethical "pro-life crisis pregnancy center" would have to be a second-stage operation. It would only deal with women who had already decided that they wanted to carry their pregnancies to term. It could help the future mothers work out the details of raising their children in difficult circumstances, or help them work out the details of the adoption process.
wedding web site
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681926] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 13:15 |
TheGlimmering
Messages: 290
Registered: January 2006
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Tue, 21 July 2009 11:14]
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681928] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 13:17 |
tarren
Messages: 854
Registered: February 2005
Location: Bay Area, USA |
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| TheGlimmering wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 14:35 |
I'm 100% behind the right to remain childfree, but not so sure about rights to an abortion unless we're talking risk to life and limb. I'm with folks that see it as a matter of conflicting human rights and also with those that think the pursuit of the right to an abortion misses the point: the majority of women would seem to want to keep the pregnancy/child, but feel circumstances make that impossible. Wouldn't it be more humane to not put a woman in that bind in the first place? Pregnancy is kind of a fact of life, it's not like people are going to stop having sex, and contraceptives aren't perfect. Abortion and adoption are both "get rid of the problem" solutions.
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1. I'm a bit confused about how you can be 100% behind the right to remain childfree but not sure about abortion. If abortion is out, how are people suppose to accomplish being childfree with certainty?
2. I'm not sure about how the majority of women feel about abortion, but I am sure that there are plenty of women who wouldn't want to keep the child. The childfree ones, for starters... And, for instance, me. So, of course, making sure every woman who wants a child can have one could be a worthy goal (although I'd stop to think about the global population implications), but it wouldn't get rid of the abortion problem, because some women just don't want children (ever, or just for at that particular time and in the particular circumstances).
3. Well, abortion is a "get rid of the problem" solution, but getting rid of problems is sort of the point of solutions, so I don't really see anything wrong with that. Although of course 100% sure contraception would be better.
And, word to DeeLeigh on the pro-life pregnancy crisis centers. I don't think pregnancy crisis centers can ethically be pro-anything. Well, OK, they can if they specifically advertise themselves as such - I'd certainly have no problem with a "Christian pro-life crisis pregnancy center" that had that name on the building, since that way the women who went in would be the pro-life ones. But if the idea of a crisis pregnancy center is supposed to be helping women who don't know what to do to choose, it needs to be, well, pro-choice. Note that pro-choice doesn't mean promoting abortions - I don't think anyone in their right mind actually promotes abortions to women who don't want to have one...
[Updated on: Mon, 15 January 2007 13:19]
"don't worry what people think - they don't do it very often"
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681963] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 14:54 |
tarren
Messages: 854
Registered: February 2005
Location: Bay Area, USA |
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| TheGlimmering wrote on Sun, 14 January 2007 14:35 |
As the thinking goes, only women can bear children just yet and it's inherently anti-woman to view any pregnancy as a problem to be solved.
From that perspective, it would be anti-woman to say menstruation or lactating is a problem to be solved.
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The problem with that thinking is that "only women can bear children/lactate/menstruate" doesn't logically imply that preventing these things is anti-woman. Only women can get breast cancer, and yet we don't mind preventing that... Because everyone agrees that breast cancer IS in fact a problem.
The thinking that DOES logically imply that preventing childbirth/lactation/menstruation is anti-woman is "ALL women do (or, possibly worse, should) WANT to give childbirth/lactate/menstruate". And a lot of people actually seem to believe that. I find these people incredibly scary - they're telling me that what I actually want is wrong and doesn't matter, because they know what's best for me!
I'm with lyssabee on that one - saying that because I'm a woman I do, or should, want to have children even though I actually don't is assuming I, as a woman, can't make up my own mind about things, and that's inherently anti-woman.
[Updated on: Mon, 15 January 2007 16:53]
"don't worry what people think - they don't do it very often"
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681991] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 16:31 |
slythwolf
Messages: 286
Registered: December 2006
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| tarren wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 15:54 |
Only women can get breast cancer
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While I agree with the rest of your post, this just isn't true. Men can and do get breast cancer, just not as often as women.
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #681997] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 16:52 |
tarren
Messages: 854
Registered: February 2005
Location: Bay Area, USA |
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| slythwolf wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 14:31 |
While I agree with the rest of your post, this just isn't true. Men can and do get breast cancer, just not as often as women.
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Sorry, good point.
"don't worry what people think - they don't do it very often"
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #682006] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 17:21 |
E Mac
Messages: 2976
Registered: January 2006
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| tarren wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 13:17 |
1. I'm a bit confused about how you can be 100% behind the right to remain childfree but not sure about abortion. If abortion is out, how are people suppose to accomplish being childfree with certainty?
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I think this is where the education/contraception piece comes into play, if I'm understanding the intent of the original post correctly.
Personally, I can say that I'm definitely 100% behind the right to prevent an unwanted pregnancy and that I can support it fully. Women (and men) deserve full access to good, factual information about safe sex and contraceptive options. Contraception should be accessible to everyone, not just people with health insurance coverage.
Even thought I'm pro-choice, I have a harder time saying that I am 100% behind the right to remain childfree. Yes, I agree that women should have full control over their bodies, which includes the childbirth process. Unfortunately, there are people who (in my opinion) abuse their right to choose - by ignoring the resources available to them or making poor decisions time and time again (women using abortion as a primary/near-primary method of birth control). This creates more trouble and problems for the women/couples who have either made a mistake, had a contraceptive failure, etc who truly have done their best to avoid pregnancy in the first place. The decision about whether to have an abortion is a difficult one - there are lots of things to consider. So, of course, I agree with all of the posters in saying that any crisis center or counselor who lies or pushes their ideology onto a pregnant woman is abusing their position and not doing anyone any favors.
I think most everyone agrees that prevention of pregnancy is everyone's first choice for the "problem" of an unwanted pregnancy. After that is when opinions and values diverge, (aside from the groups that don't believe in any type of contraception whatsoever).
There has been an interesting conversation recently - some pro-choice groups are reaching out to pro-life groups in an attempt to reduce unwanted pregnancies through education and outreach. Unfortunately, the last I heard is that the pro-life side of the equation hasn't really stepped up to take part in this. Again, probably a difference (or perceived difference) in values is impacting the different sides from working towards what should be a common goal.
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #682018] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 17:48 |
TheGlimmering
Messages: 290
Registered: January 2006
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Tue, 21 July 2009 11:13]
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #682075] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 21:22 |
doomcookie
Messages: 635
Registered: April 2006
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[quote title=E Mac wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 17:21]| tarren wrote on Mon, 15 January 2007 13:17 |
Personally, I can say that I'm definitely 100% behind the right
Even thought I'm pro-choice, I have a harder time saying that I am 100% behind the right to remain childfree.
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I'm hoping this is just a case of my reading you wrong. 'Cause if not, that's a pretty damned scary attitude.
From the rest of your post, it sounds almost as if you'd like to *punish* irresponsible women by *obliging* them to have babies, so that the more "responsible" ones can avail themselves of a necessary (but undesirable, for you) abortion...(ETA: the "woman who uses abortion as a primary form of birth control" is a favorite strawwoman of the right wing. Such people account for a miniscule number of actual abortions performed.)
Honestly it doesn't gel. If you don't recognize my right to neither birth nor raise a child, and to abort if my (SEVERAL) contraceptive precautions should all happen to fail, I'm sorry. You ain't pro-choice.
[Updated on: Mon, 15 January 2007 21:25]
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| Re: Crisis Pregnancy Center Investigation [message #682097] |
Mon, 15 January 2007 22:28 |
slythwolf
Messages: 286
Registered: December 2006
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I find it interesting that many of the people I know who are pro-life believe that pregnancies should be welcomed because children are a gift from god, but then they turn around and say things to the effect that women who are irresponsible enough to "allow" their birth control to fail should "pay" for what they have done. I ask them whether they truly consider children a gift, or if children are in fact a punishment, and they don't usually have anything to say.
The interesting part is that these people tend to believe that there is no such thing as a responsible way to have sex without intending to get pregnant. They say things like, "Well, yeah, the Pill isn't 100%, so if it doesn't work, you just have to realize maybe you shouldn't have been having sex."
I sometimes wonder if they also believe I shouldn't get married if I don't intend to have children, or if they think I should condemn myself and my fiancé to a sexless marriage. Or should we do "everything but"? I'm not sure what the solution is here.
I know one poster mentioned believing in the right to remain childfree, but not by any means necessary. If you do not believe that I have the right to remain childfree in all circumstances, then you don't believe I have that right at all. That's what a right is. That's why the Constitution doesn't guarantee our right to freedom of speech in some circumstances. Something is either a right, or it isn't, and if I have the right to do something, or not do something, that right does not go away because of an accident of biology. What you actually believe is that I have the right to hope to remain childfree, but that I should have to take unnecessary chances.
[Updated on: Mon, 15 January 2007 22:30]
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